Charting a Path in Healthcare with Heather Zorge

WEBVTT

00:00:02.145 --> 00:00:11.192
Welcome to the Confidence Curve with Ashley and Rick Bowers, where personal and professional journeys define the art of scaling with confidence.

00:00:11.192 --> 00:00:21.571
Whether you're a business leader navigating change or someone seeking personal growth, this podcast offers insights and actionable advice to help you thrive.

00:00:21.571 --> 00:00:26.492
Now let's dive into today's conversation with our incredible guest.

00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:30.161
Welcome.

00:00:30.161 --> 00:00:34.536
Here we are with the Confidence Curve podcast from Apex GTS Advisors.

00:00:34.536 --> 00:00:40.459
My name is Ashley Bowers and my co-host, business partner and husband, Rick Bowers, is here with me Today.

00:00:40.459 --> 00:00:42.503
We are welcoming a very special guest.

00:00:42.503 --> 00:00:47.613
I first met her on a panel several months back and we really aligned.

00:00:47.613 --> 00:00:54.588
I think she's done amazing things, scaling organizations and really developing her team and keeping it all together in the process.

00:00:54.588 --> 00:00:56.262
We have Heather Zorg with us today.

00:00:56.262 --> 00:00:58.247
Cfo of EvolveMD.

00:00:58.247 --> 00:01:00.432
Heather welcome, Thank you.

00:01:00.432 --> 00:01:06.807
Tell us a little bit about yourself and what of what brought you to your current role, and then we'll get started with some conversation.

00:01:06.807 --> 00:01:07.007
Yeah.

00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:10.069
First, thank you both, ashley Rick, for inviting me.

00:01:10.069 --> 00:01:10.811
I'm so excited.

00:01:10.811 --> 00:01:13.349
This is my first podcast, so super fun.

00:01:13.349 --> 00:01:16.326
So I'm Heather Zorge.

00:01:16.326 --> 00:01:18.167
I'm the CFO of EvolvedMD.

00:01:18.167 --> 00:01:22.671
I've been in the business for about almost nine months going on.

00:01:22.671 --> 00:01:28.272
Evolved is a small business working on being big.

00:01:28.272 --> 00:01:33.031
It's actually the smallest business I've been in before, which is really exciting.

00:01:33.031 --> 00:01:40.534
What we do is we integrate behavioral health, mental health, into the primary care setting.

00:01:40.534 --> 00:01:50.427
So our co-founders, eric Oslund and Steve Bilgin, created the organization mid-2015 and have been off to the races since then.

00:01:50.427 --> 00:02:07.757
We contract with some of the largest delivery arm health care providers, primary care providers in the Valley, and we really work to put our behavioral health managers into the primary care setting and to provide them the mental health support that they need, while also keeping the primary care doctor in the loop.

00:02:07.757 --> 00:02:08.520
So it's really cool.

00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:09.443
It's very innovative.

00:02:09.443 --> 00:02:12.433
I'm so grateful to be there.

00:02:12.455 --> 00:02:17.307
I started my career here in Arizona at PricewaterhouseCoopers, graduated from ASU, really grew up here.

00:02:17.307 --> 00:02:19.961
Arizona is near and dear to my heart.

00:02:19.961 --> 00:02:20.481
I love it.

00:02:20.481 --> 00:02:20.923
I love it.

00:02:20.923 --> 00:02:21.343
I love it.

00:02:21.343 --> 00:02:22.466
I choose to be here.

00:02:22.466 --> 00:02:36.425
I graduated from ASU with my degree in accounting, went into Big Four PricewaterhouseCoopers, spent five years here, did all large public audits just really ended up met one of my best mentors.

00:02:36.425 --> 00:02:40.913
I think my first year is when I met her.

00:02:40.913 --> 00:02:52.582
I moved to DC, was in the DC office for about three years, left Big Four and went to Europe.

00:02:52.582 --> 00:02:53.486
It was really exciting with that mentor.

00:02:53.486 --> 00:03:03.354
I was the head of finance for a large oil company over there in Switzerland, did that for three and a half years and then in that time I have a great husband 25 years, his name is Neil, my best friend.

00:03:03.354 --> 00:03:09.800
Years.

00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:12.668
His name is Neil, my best friend, and we have two boys that are now 21 and 19.

00:03:12.668 --> 00:03:14.252
So during all that moving we moved to Europe.

00:03:14.252 --> 00:03:22.901
My husband decided to really couldn't work under my visa, so he was a stay at home dad for a while, which was amazing, very well educated stay at home dad he's so good at it.

00:03:22.901 --> 00:03:35.626
And then we did that for three and a half years and just decided we needed to either stay there or come home, and home for us was here, and then I really got this.

00:03:37.441 --> 00:03:41.289
I'm in this niche where I have spent since 2010,.

00:03:41.289 --> 00:03:52.389
When we moved back, I've been the CFO, coo of various companies in the valley, the majority of them being private equity backed or founder-led.

00:03:52.389 --> 00:03:58.944
Looking to how do I make this thing grow and scale, how do I have the exit I want?

00:03:58.944 --> 00:04:00.546
Do I want to get my first money?

00:04:00.546 --> 00:04:02.389
All those things.

00:04:02.389 --> 00:04:04.151
So I've been in.

00:04:04.151 --> 00:04:20.629
Honestly, I don't think I've been in the same industry twice and, yeah, I love supporting amazing CEOs and founders that take really big chances and then I can come alongside them and help them scale.

00:04:20.629 --> 00:04:27.880
Help them scale.

00:04:27.901 --> 00:04:28.382
So and and and EvolvedMD.

00:04:28.382 --> 00:04:30.827
What led me there is I was looking for a place that really fit my culture, fit me culturally.

00:04:30.827 --> 00:04:37.408
I'm at a stage in my career now where I don't have to let the company choose me.

00:04:37.408 --> 00:04:43.440
I can choose them and I can be really intentional about that and Evolved.

00:04:43.440 --> 00:04:46.444
I know Centauri Minor is our chief of staff and I've known him for years and I can be really intentional about that and evolved.

00:04:46.444 --> 00:04:51.389
I know Centauri Minor is our chief of staff and I've known him for years and I just knew if he was part of it was.

00:04:51.389 --> 00:05:05.783
He was there, the culture was going to be great, and then I met Eric and I met Steve and all the team and it's just they're so great and what I mean.

00:05:05.783 --> 00:05:11.682
How often do you get to use your professional skill set in a business that is doing so much good in the world and that's really having fun using my brain, learning and doing good, so it was really unique.

00:05:11.682 --> 00:05:12.987
That's me.

00:05:12.987 --> 00:05:13.750
That's how I got here.

00:05:14.822 --> 00:05:16.627
So what's the biggest surprise?

00:05:16.627 --> 00:05:21.158
Or aha, being in a small company now, because you've been with some big companies for a while.

00:05:21.158 --> 00:05:22.966
So what is that thing?

00:05:22.966 --> 00:05:24.083
Are you just like?

00:05:24.083 --> 00:05:24.786
This is amazing.

00:05:27.262 --> 00:05:28.444
Yeah, I found myself.

00:05:28.444 --> 00:05:41.829
So I, when, when I uh look at issues or problems, I I tend to say there's someone here, there's someone smarter than us, whatever that has done this before.

00:05:41.829 --> 00:05:54.863
So let's not spin our wheels, let's go find that, that nugget, that smarter person, and and make it simpler for ourselves, and not only because of the size of Evolve but because of what we're trying to do.

00:05:54.863 --> 00:06:02.704
There are instances where I'm like huh, I actually like I don't know that there's going to be an easy.

00:06:02.704 --> 00:06:10.129
I think we're going to have to just make a decision, fail fast and hope and then know we have to be on the lookout.

00:06:10.129 --> 00:06:13.149
So that's been one thing, that I've said that more often.

00:06:13.149 --> 00:06:17.571
The other thing is we're venture-backed, and that's new to me.

00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:28.665
I primarily lived in either the public or the private equity world and I had heard there would be differences, but I didn't totally understand right, what would that mean?

00:06:28.665 --> 00:06:38.317
And it is different and I think, even operating in a position where you're, you know you're having to really intention.

00:06:38.317 --> 00:06:39.682
You always think about cash flow.

00:06:39.682 --> 00:06:51.646
As a CFO, you always think about your runway, but this is a place where you're thinking about it even more and you have to be really strategic about that, which you always are, but this is a different level of pressure when you're in a VC bag, so it's things like that.

00:06:53.000 --> 00:07:13.043
I think one thing that's been really interestingly surprising is this business is actually weirdly pleasantly surprising in the humans that they've invested in how they do things Like for the first time.

00:07:13.043 --> 00:07:29.826
I, you know, the team I inherited is so great and they're, you know, I mean, nobody's perfect, they have stuff to learn, but boy are they willing to and they're open and that's you know, just because of who that business is, and so that's been a little surprising.

00:07:29.826 --> 00:07:33.269
I don't know, I haven't seen a business like normally.

00:07:33.269 --> 00:07:40.812
The businesses I go in are much larger and they don't look like that Right, and so that's been a little pleasantly surprising.

00:07:40.812 --> 00:07:41.937
Good, that's awesome.

00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:46.800
Yeah, and I love the perspective of just like you can learn from everywhere.

00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:53.163
Right, if you want to, you can learn from anything, anyone, any situation, any size, any.

00:07:53.163 --> 00:07:54.430
Some people close themselves off to that.

00:07:54.430 --> 00:08:04.377
I'm like you're missing just a huge opportunity to grow as an individual and to make even a bigger impact If you're a little bit more curious about the situation and take that learning standpoint.

00:08:04.377 --> 00:08:16.204
So you mentioned about failing fast, and one of the things I loved about the panel that we shared together was your vulnerability and, just being honest, of you know letting other people learn from those failures, because that's where we learn the most right.

00:08:16.204 --> 00:08:22.404
You know, we all have our stories of getting it right, but the getting wrong ones usually help people out a lot more.

00:08:22.404 --> 00:08:29.821
So can you share a time when, time when you faced a significant failure, either in your career or within an organization, and just how did you handle it?

00:08:29.821 --> 00:08:32.746
How did you rally your team to be resilient in that time?

00:08:32.787 --> 00:08:43.865
as well, yeah, um, I'm going to give you a two one that I had to rally myself and one where I had to probably rally myself and my team, I'll be honest.

00:08:43.865 --> 00:08:48.248
I mean there's a lot of those, so a really significant one.

00:08:48.248 --> 00:09:11.528
I had the pleasure of being the CFO of Western Window Systems, which was a really fast-paced, innovative window and door manufacturer here in the Valley Amazing team, such a fantastic culture, and we had leadership principles there that our CEO was very intentional about, and the first one was love people first.

00:09:11.528 --> 00:09:14.354
The sixth one was do hard things.

00:09:14.354 --> 00:09:17.005
Another one was think gray and like.

00:09:17.005 --> 00:09:30.951
There were so many and they all contradicted each other and when I was there, I had honestly, it was my first time in manufacturing I at first, uh, when I got there, they had no cost accountant.

00:09:30.951 --> 00:09:33.008
I'm like that feels not great.

00:09:33.008 --> 00:09:35.927
Let's maybe fix that.

00:09:35.927 --> 00:09:39.159
And the systems weren't fantastic.

00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:53.375
So there's any number of things right Getting in the way of getting um, inventory right, any number of things right getting in the way of getting inventory right.

00:09:53.375 --> 00:09:54.958
And we had it was after we had been acquired.

00:09:54.958 --> 00:09:58.822
So we were now on more of a public, we were acquired by a public company, obviously very important to get things right.

00:09:58.922 --> 00:10:12.312
I understand that, and we had a really big miss, one of the biggest misses I've had in my accounting, and it was multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars that we had missed in AP.

00:10:12.312 --> 00:10:13.974
So it was the wrong way as well.

00:10:13.974 --> 00:10:24.982
It was one of those things that shouldn't happen, because you know your last control with your accounts payable is your vendors yelling at you.

00:10:24.982 --> 00:10:32.052
You know what I learned in that moment If your vendor doesn't have a clue, you cannot at all rely on that.

00:10:32.052 --> 00:10:43.663
And what I, what I found in that moment was one I had to own it.

00:10:43.663 --> 00:10:45.187
We had missed some basics, but I also had to figure out why.

00:10:45.187 --> 00:10:56.931
Because I had built the team was fantastic and what I realized through the learning and what I had to rally my team around was one we have to learn from this and we can't keep it to ourselves.

00:10:56.931 --> 00:11:06.307
So this think gray idea acknowledging failure, being curious, acknowledging failure being curious.

00:11:06.307 --> 00:11:17.277
So I had to swallow my ego and go talk and pull my CIO, pull my VP of product, my CEO, sit in a room and be like guys, I don't know how I missed this.

00:11:17.277 --> 00:11:31.059
We have a fundamental problem in what's happening and I don't think it's just the AP was wrong, I think, and I don't want to miss that moment, but it takes me saying I failed and I really don't want to do it again.

00:11:31.059 --> 00:11:37.842
And I'm going to acknowledge that while I'm the CFO of this company and accounting is my thing, I need your help.

00:11:39.024 --> 00:11:59.428
And what I learned through that moment was it's okay and people want to help you, they want to be involved, and so you're almost denying them that by not letting them in, and I would have missed it and I would have not learned from that.

00:11:59.428 --> 00:12:03.971
And the other thing which I really had to help my team because they all obviously felt terrible.

00:12:03.971 --> 00:12:10.701
It was a terrible timing You've just been acquired, right, it's's just nothing.

00:12:10.701 --> 00:12:11.464
It was just nothing good about it.

00:12:11.464 --> 00:12:14.909
And I told my team I'm like, look, I'm gonna, I own this.

00:12:15.691 --> 00:12:19.623
We try to do really hard things here, really quickly, and I love that.

00:12:19.623 --> 00:12:27.336
And what I forgot to tell you is I need you to do that and you can't let go of the fundamentals.

00:12:27.336 --> 00:12:31.767
You can't like we had stopped reconciling something to go off and do something cool.

00:12:31.767 --> 00:12:36.591
And so it's my moment of always remember, trust but verify.

00:12:36.591 --> 00:12:40.931
Never lose sight of those things that you know.

00:12:40.931 --> 00:12:50.168
You get excited to go try it and help and whatnot, and you can sometimes get into that mindset of it won't happen to me and it can, and we can't do that to our companies.

00:12:50.168 --> 00:12:52.225
So that's a really big one.

00:12:52.225 --> 00:13:01.154
That I would say was a rallying moment for myself and my team and it still sits and resonates with me and I still have to work on it.

00:13:01.154 --> 00:13:03.138
Honestly, I trust too quickly, so I always have to work on that.

00:13:03.138 --> 00:13:04.535
So I mean, throughout that story you could hear the discomfort and I still have to work on it.

00:13:04.535 --> 00:13:05.783
Honestly, I trust too quickly, so I always have to work on that.

00:13:05.769 --> 00:13:08.307
Yeah, yeah, so I mean throughout that story.

00:13:08.307 --> 00:13:09.711
You could hear the discomfort.

00:13:10.111 --> 00:13:12.418
Oh, I did, yeah, and it was years ago, yeah.

00:13:13.562 --> 00:13:15.028
And so you feel those things.

00:13:15.028 --> 00:13:21.807
But there's a lot of people that have written books and research and things out there that discomfort is where growth comes from.

00:13:21.807 --> 00:13:29.791
Yeah, and if you're in a situation where it's always comfortable, are you really growing and doing some of those kinds of things?

00:13:29.791 --> 00:13:47.067
And so how do you maybe with a small company it's more about yourself than it is from the team, since it's a smaller company but how do you help the team grow from some of those uncomfortable moments or, say, get out of your comfort zone a little bit so that we can all get better?

00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:57.130
um, I think the key I've found is letting them see that I don't know everything.

00:13:57.130 --> 00:14:02.783
And one could argue I've been a cfo for a long time, I'm not going to talk about that and.

00:14:02.783 --> 00:14:27.368
And so one could argue I should just know all the things and what I find to your point, ashley, like I don't know all the things, even though I've been a CFO for God knows how many years, and so I really focus with my team on showing them it's okay to not know, but you got to go figure it out and it's okay to fail and we have to learn from it.

00:14:27.368 --> 00:14:32.812
So it's like all those ands pulling the ands together that I found works.

00:14:32.812 --> 00:14:36.355
Like I had one of my controllers tell me I was the first boss.

00:14:36.355 --> 00:14:38.337
That it's really interesting.

00:14:38.337 --> 00:14:48.946
I had one controller tell me I was the first boss that made her feel safe to fail and the growth she felt from that was tremendous because she wasn't scared.

00:14:48.946 --> 00:14:50.470
She wasn't scared to come.

00:14:50.470 --> 00:14:53.123
Oh, heather, I missed this, I what you know, whatever.

00:14:53.123 --> 00:14:54.085
And I'm like, yeah, you missed it.

00:14:54.085 --> 00:14:55.128
And what?

00:14:55.128 --> 00:14:57.721
What did we learn from it and how do we fix it right?

00:14:58.462 --> 00:15:08.249
The other thing was and I also had one of my VPs tell me I didn't let her fail enough, and that was very early in my career.

00:15:08.249 --> 00:15:14.250
Those are two very different messages, and so I try to learn from what my team is telling me as well.

00:15:14.250 --> 00:15:21.025
There isn't one size fits all for any of them, and so how do you adjust yourself to?

00:15:21.025 --> 00:15:51.451
You, know what they need, but also hold, like I always tell people, my expectations are very high and I'm I had to get okay with that, but I'm also going to come alongside you as we, as we work toward, towards it, and we're going to be I'm going to be compassionately accountable, but we, we are going to do the thing and it's going to be hard and you know you're gonna, you're gonna learn and we're gonna be clear and kind not nice which there's a very big difference.

00:15:51.530 --> 00:15:53.039
I don't know, it's always just a phase.

00:15:53.461 --> 00:16:01.403
Uh clear, as kind that's exactly what we would say all the time, for sure yeah, exactly so you mentioned a mentor, um, in the beginning of the conversation.

00:16:01.443 --> 00:16:17.573
when you're introducing yourself, how would you say that mentors have impacted you throughout your career and is there a piece of advice that you received early on potentially that has kind of stuck with you, that you revisit when you're going through some of the harder times?

00:16:17.595 --> 00:16:18.340
in your career, oh, my God, all the time.

00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:51.162
I think that one thing I've learned in my career is, if you're willing to listen, almost all people have something to teach you and you have to kind of get out of your own way and your own head and your own ego and all those things, or even the personal side of it, like, because sometimes you can hear things that could make you kind of curl in on yourself and and um so, uh, there's been, honestly, I've had so many.

00:16:51.162 --> 00:16:52.865
I mean there's a couple little tidbits.

00:16:52.865 --> 00:17:02.447
Um, my first mentor that um I mentioned, uh, she's phenomenal and such a strong female leader in oil and gas um, which is crazy.

00:17:02.447 --> 00:17:04.190
Leader in oil and gas, which is crazy.

00:17:04.190 --> 00:17:08.435
And she taught me that and that's really where I taught.

00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:18.321
I learned just to try hard things.

00:17:18.321 --> 00:17:20.267
And I remember one time she told me I was a senior associate at PricewaterhouseCoopers.

00:17:20.267 --> 00:17:22.692
I was acting as a manager on two of her large public jobs.

00:17:22.692 --> 00:17:28.226
So I was up and she's handed me in accounting you have to do something called.

00:17:28.226 --> 00:17:35.300
It used to be called the physical, who knows what it's called now but it's this huge list of things you have to do to make sure that your public filing is accurate.

00:17:35.300 --> 00:17:36.701
She's like here, do this.

00:17:36.701 --> 00:17:40.266
I'm like I don't know.

00:17:40.266 --> 00:17:41.207
Like what me?

00:17:41.207 --> 00:17:42.887
I don't, I don't do that.

00:17:42.887 --> 00:17:43.489
That's not what.

00:17:43.489 --> 00:17:45.631
Like, senior managers do that because it's so important.

00:17:45.631 --> 00:17:50.395
She's like go do it, if you don't come back to me with a zillion questions.

00:17:50.395 --> 00:17:51.036
You did it wrong.

00:17:51.036 --> 00:17:57.501
And I'm like that's actually super fair and interesting.

00:17:57.501 --> 00:18:05.214
And she taught me, like my second year, that you need to like working for leaders and yourself.

00:18:05.214 --> 00:18:13.448
If you just go away and try to do something with and acting like I know what I'm doing, it's not going to get you anywhere and most humans actually don't expect you to do that.

00:18:13.448 --> 00:18:26.981
So it allows you to try really hard things and I think that what that taught me is I don't shy away and I actually go towards opportunities that I don't know what the heck I'm doing.

00:18:27.303 --> 00:18:32.060
Like when I went to Europe, I had no idea I went over there to be the head of internal audit.

00:18:32.060 --> 00:18:36.711
I'm like, okay, super cool, I've been head of, you know, senior manager at PwC.

00:18:36.711 --> 00:18:39.122
I can be head of internal audit all day long.

00:18:39.122 --> 00:18:44.230
I get there and our head of finance was really struggling.

00:18:44.230 --> 00:18:48.056
And so, karen, within I don't know, it was like two weeks.

00:18:48.056 --> 00:18:50.046
She's like hey, why don't you just do the head of finance?

00:18:50.046 --> 00:18:51.770
I'm like, do what you want me to do, what?

00:18:51.770 --> 00:19:02.604
Yeah, we're going to go public in three months and I need you to unwind this, do that, sell that and okay, whatever You've told me.

00:19:02.604 --> 00:19:07.488
You've shown me that if I try, I can do it, and it just why not?

00:19:07.488 --> 00:19:10.109
And you surround yourself with really smart people.

00:19:10.109 --> 00:19:18.656
You ask curious questions, you make mistakes and then you're like, yeah, that kind of sucked, but we can fix it, it'll be fine.

00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:28.564
It reminds me of the conversation that we had.

00:19:28.564 --> 00:19:30.732
I was consulting for HomeSmart at the time and the CEO took us to dinner and was like hey, come back in.

00:19:30.732 --> 00:19:34.806
You know a full-time capacity back at the resident level and I want to go public.

00:19:34.806 --> 00:19:37.881
And I just looked at him at dinner I said like I don't know how to do that.

00:19:37.881 --> 00:19:40.247
I don't think I've never worked for a public company.

00:19:40.247 --> 00:19:45.095
I've never taken a company public Like let me hire you a team that knows what they're doing.

00:19:45.836 --> 00:19:49.946
And he just looked at me and goes no, hire yourself a team that can go do it.

00:19:49.946 --> 00:19:53.063
But you do it, and I mean candidly.

00:19:53.063 --> 00:20:03.791
I remember Googling terms, being on calls with bankers and lawyers and investment advisors and sometimes I would get really frustrated because they were using acronyms for things that they didn't need to use acronyms for.

00:20:03.791 --> 00:20:14.402
But that is part of the process and everyone who worked on that team just looks back at the entire thing as the biggest learning moment of their entire career, no matter what role they played.

00:20:14.402 --> 00:20:17.874
It was just such a learning moment because it was really hard.

00:20:17.874 --> 00:20:21.803
We had no idea what we were doing, but we were determined to do it right.

00:20:22.202 --> 00:20:23.144
What made you do it?

00:20:23.144 --> 00:20:24.345
Like, why did you say yes?

00:20:24.345 --> 00:20:28.289
I don't know that I've ever been asked that question.

00:20:28.289 --> 00:20:38.290
I think in the moment it was something that you know obviously I hadn't done before.

00:20:38.290 --> 00:20:42.336
This is going to sound cheesy.

00:20:42.336 --> 00:20:46.651
I think actually, in that moment I knew that I would protect him over the glory of going public.

00:20:46.651 --> 00:21:09.825
Yeah, and I knew that by him having me do it and surrounding a team like that's what he was looking for is for someone to still, like, have his best interests at heart versus someone who had done it and it was transactional and yeah, that can get me a little emotional at this moment, but like, yeah, I think keeping the culture connecting with the people and all of that was.

00:21:10.516 --> 00:21:18.765
So he wanted your how he wanted, like how he knew you would do it and he knew you could figure out the technical yeah.

00:21:19.125 --> 00:21:22.084
Right, which at times went better than other times, for sure.

00:21:22.474 --> 00:21:28.882
I always find it fascinating how, so many times, we focus on the what, and it's like most humans can learn the what.

00:21:28.882 --> 00:21:30.125
You know what I mean?

00:21:30.125 --> 00:21:35.804
Yeah, like you can learn how to reconcile the thing or to fix that thing or to learn that process, but their how?

00:21:36.244 --> 00:21:45.517
yeah, that approach the intention, yeah, the integrity, the you know the why well, and that was at the end when I was exiting and joining Rick and Apex.

00:21:45.637 --> 00:21:54.106
One of the things that we want to do or help business owners exit right- and go through that process and I called one of our investment advisors and I said you know, I have one question.

00:21:54.106 --> 00:21:58.864
Like we hired everyone you referred to us lawyers, bankers, like you name it.

00:21:58.864 --> 00:22:00.029
We always went back to their people.

00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:05.085
We would do our due diligence, interview other people, but we always went back to their kind of stable of referrals.

00:22:05.085 --> 00:22:09.423
And I said you never referred a coach to us.

00:22:10.767 --> 00:22:11.669
And he's like what do do you mean?

00:22:11.669 --> 00:22:18.786
And I was like for like at midnight, when I can't get a model to work and the bankers are going to put us on hold, who do I call?

00:22:18.786 --> 00:22:23.513
You know, when you don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing in front of certain people, who's that person?

00:22:23.513 --> 00:22:26.219
Just to guide you step-by-step through the process?

00:22:26.219 --> 00:22:28.662
That only has our interest at heart, right?

00:22:28.662 --> 00:22:33.709
And he actually laughed on the call and he was like that doesn't exist, ashley.

00:22:33.709 --> 00:22:38.493
So my next question I was like well, based on what I've done, do you think I'm qualified to do that?

00:22:38.493 --> 00:22:41.645
Because I feel like that's a gap, because it is so stressful.

00:22:41.645 --> 00:22:48.625
It's such a crazy stressful process and you just need your person in your corner as you're going through it.

00:22:48.625 --> 00:22:50.976
And thankfully he said yes, or I don't.

00:22:50.976 --> 00:22:59.998
I don't know that Rick would would have accepted me in apex, but I don't know, I mean but I think some of some of that back to your question of why you did it.

00:23:00.117 --> 00:23:18.623
it's everything happens for a reason, and the fact that you had that opportunity and that that he trusted you with that, so that put some more um more behind what you wanted to accomplish and prove everybody else wrong because they put timelines on it and you beat the timelines and all of those things.

00:23:18.623 --> 00:23:34.443
But now, having said everything you said, what you're doing for our current clients is amazing things and it's, I think, going to lead us into kind of that next phase as Apex continues to grow as well.

00:23:35.215 --> 00:23:37.443
It is fun because, like you know, you're taking some of the pain away.

00:23:37.443 --> 00:23:40.462
You know just that little bit.

00:23:40.462 --> 00:23:41.125
You really are.

00:23:41.494 --> 00:23:53.567
Probably more than a little bit, I'll be honest, Having a great advisor that knows what they are doing and that you can connect with and be vulnerable with.

00:23:53.567 --> 00:24:11.367
Because it's really hard, when you're in a C position or higher VP right to show that I don't know and in a really critical moment, you don't want to show you don't know and so to be able to just be like, yeah, I don't know how to do this.

00:24:11.367 --> 00:24:12.028
Can you help?

00:24:12.028 --> 00:24:12.806
Have that bat phone that you can call?

00:24:12.755 --> 00:24:16.130
Have that bat phone that you can call yeah that bat phone that you can call is really important.

00:24:16.535 --> 00:24:22.147
So how have you gone about choosing a coach more so than a mentor?

00:24:22.755 --> 00:24:24.863
Yeah, so I do have a coach.

00:24:24.863 --> 00:24:27.601
She has changed my life.

00:24:27.601 --> 00:24:30.240
I've had a few.

00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:36.567
The first couple I had were kind of really early in my career.

00:24:36.567 --> 00:24:39.683
I would say they were chosen for me.

00:24:39.683 --> 00:24:47.145
I'm honestly looking back so glad that that happened because I don't think I would have known what good looked like.

00:24:47.145 --> 00:24:56.134
Because I think you can have coaches that three varieties, and I've had three and maybe there's more, but I've had three.

00:24:56.134 --> 00:25:02.087
You have a really great coach that's focused on making Heather better in this environment.

00:25:02.087 --> 00:25:05.965
How do we make Heather better for this role, this environment?

00:25:05.965 --> 00:25:16.631
Or you can have a coach that's how do we make this employee good for this company?

00:25:16.631 --> 00:25:21.479
It's a very different tone and tenor and discussion point.

00:25:21.479 --> 00:25:25.445
Right, if it's the lens of what the coach is is using.

00:25:27.209 --> 00:25:45.115
I found Christina I was, uh, giving Christine Christina's name name when I was going through my biggest failure, personal, in my first CFO role, and I was one of those people that always went up and to the right.

00:25:45.115 --> 00:25:51.107
I was always promoted early, ranked one at big four, you know, do all the hard things.

00:25:51.107 --> 00:26:06.060
And then my first CFO role, I ran into a pretty big stumbling block and it could have I don't think if I, if I hadn't found her and gone through that, it could have really changed the the direction of my career.

00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:13.310
And so Christina is more my coach and what I would encourage.

00:26:13.310 --> 00:26:48.878
I think all humans I mean I'm in behavioral health and I love it I think all humans need support and I think all humans need someone who has nothing in it but a lot of and a lot of skill to really help not tell you what to do, but to listen and guide you to the answer that you need to get to, and so what Christina has done for me is really help and and she would when she hears this she's gonna hate that I said because she always says I do the work, and she's right, I do the work and she guides me through the work.

00:26:48.878 --> 00:26:52.446
It's a lot of work, it's hard, um.

00:26:53.409 --> 00:27:17.665
She focuses on who who's heather and how do we make heather her best self, her most confident self, her most accepted self, and um this idea of you're in a box and you can be this cfo at work and this mom and a wife and a sister and a and a daughter and that right, all the things all of us humans are going through every day and trying to show up and and manage everything.

00:27:17.665 --> 00:27:25.468
Um, you're just one human and so that that's how I would like you one.

00:27:25.468 --> 00:27:26.229
Don't get a coach.

00:27:26.229 --> 00:27:34.855
To get a coach, it's not worth it, it's going to be a waste of your time and your resources or your company's resources.

00:27:34.855 --> 00:27:53.103
Get a coach because you want to know who do you want to be right and and be prepared for it being hard and be prepared for maybe you're not in the right place for you and for where you can show up as your best self and be prepared like you.

00:27:53.183 --> 00:28:03.150
It is a like, and so I've been with Christina for, um, it'll be 10 years in May, um, and so it's a lot of work.

00:28:03.150 --> 00:28:07.580
I love it and I hate it all at the same time.

00:28:07.580 --> 00:28:12.126
Um, I don't, I actually don't hate it, but sometimes I don't enjoy her.

00:28:12.126 --> 00:28:54.977
Uh, she's making me look at really hard things, um, and I, I think also I'll just be real I think a lot of how we show up in high stress situations comes from your childhood and past, things that you haven't, you didn't even know, you didn't deal with, but it's driving your behavior and to truly accept yourself, you kind of need to know that and it's never done, like I've realized, like what it's done for me is, I feel I, I can tell, I can tell when I'm like little Heather's back, I need her to go back on the playground and let adult Heather continue to to do this because, you know, she's really showing up right now and so now I'm not showing up as my best self.

00:28:55.939 --> 00:29:06.584
So it just it's really allowed me to accept myself and even accept all of my multitudes of flaws that I have in every hat that I wear.

00:29:06.584 --> 00:29:15.748
But I'm grateful for it and I'm so glad I did it and I'm, you know I'm more more content with myself than I know I would have been if I hadn't done it.

00:29:16.635 --> 00:29:24.165
This is going to sound like the weirdest analogy, but I equate coaching, like being a coach, to being an auditor.

00:29:24.987 --> 00:29:28.202
Oh, interesting, because when you think about it and learning this.

00:29:28.202 --> 00:29:47.084
Trying to go public, we had one big four company helping us get ready, but then we had a different big four company actually auditing us and they're like you pay them, right, you're technically their customer, but they're there basically to look at everything and to judge and critique and go through and form an opinion, right.

00:29:47.084 --> 00:30:10.626
And I feel like that's how businesses have to look at coaching, because if I'm paying a coach to coach one of my executives, I am paying them, I am the customer as the business, but they aren't there for me, they're there for that individual and that coaching might lead to that individual no longer being in the organization and everyone needs to be okay with it Because if they've gone through that process, it's what was right in that moment.

00:30:10.626 --> 00:30:18.496
So it's almost that same type of relationship from the transaction standpoint of I've heard you know different owners and things.

00:30:18.516 --> 00:30:25.570
So well, if I pay for a coach or I send to a peer advisory group and they're just complaining about me, it's like, well, one, look at you Like that sounds like a you thing.

00:30:25.570 --> 00:30:27.538
Yeah, that sounds like a you thing, you know.

00:30:27.538 --> 00:30:35.761
But two, if they're needing that outlet in order for themselves to grow so they can handle things better and they can show up as their best self every day.

00:30:35.761 --> 00:30:39.683
Why not do that, even if maybe it leads to a relationship change, right?

00:30:40.075 --> 00:30:49.663
Because either way it's good for them too, right, I mean, as much as uncomfortable as it is, everybody's better for it, and we lose that a lot, I think.

00:30:50.016 --> 00:30:55.428
It goes to the joke of what if we pay for training and coaching for our employees, and then they go somewhere else?

00:30:55.428 --> 00:30:57.919
And then the other guy says well, what if we don't?

00:30:57.919 --> 00:30:58.559
And they stay.

00:30:58.740 --> 00:30:59.060
Yeah.

00:30:59.622 --> 00:31:00.423
Exactly.

00:31:00.502 --> 00:31:02.787
Yeah, I agree with that, so so good.

00:31:02.807 --> 00:31:03.469
I love that quote.

00:31:03.648 --> 00:31:06.142
I love that Switching gears just a little bit.

00:31:06.142 --> 00:31:22.680
So one of leadership's most challenging tasks is balancing high expectations with supporting our teams and developing our people.

00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:29.728
So, as a CFO, how do you go about balancing the development of your people and executing the business strategy at the same time?

00:31:29.728 --> 00:31:30.127
How do I do that?

00:31:30.127 --> 00:31:32.991
I, I guess I'm very intentional about it.

00:31:32.991 --> 00:32:01.836
I try to use techniques to fully delegate, which is different, in my mind, than just delegation, so not just delegating the work but also delegating kind of the outcome and knowing that sometimes when I do that, I and they are going to fail.

00:32:01.836 --> 00:32:08.303
And that's okay as long as we both learn from it.

00:32:08.303 --> 00:32:28.695
And so if because if I don't fully delegate, I can't pick my head up, focus on the strategy, it won't allow me to spend the right amount of time with the humans that report to me who in my role I've often found are very diverse.

00:32:28.695 --> 00:32:38.199
So I have, in my current role, I have business intelligence, implementation, it, accounting, finance, people.

00:32:38.199 --> 00:32:55.855
So in that context, if I don't delegate, if I don't, I can't strategically do what I need to do for the business and Eric, my CEO, I can't be who I need to be for my peers and I can't be who I need to be for my team.

00:32:55.855 --> 00:33:01.992
So I think full delegation is really important to being able to manage both.

00:33:01.992 --> 00:33:16.345
I also, I'm very transparent with my team so they always know where they're at with me and I don't hide my expectations.

00:33:16.345 --> 00:33:22.134
So I am very clear about what good looks like for me.

00:33:22.134 --> 00:33:25.652
I do a lot of work to not do things for them.

00:33:25.873 --> 00:33:33.836
I learned that we, we often one of my my learnings in my career is I, I love people.

00:33:33.836 --> 00:33:42.599
I love seeing my team grow and achieve and become better than me, which so many have like.

00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.932
I have one of my past favorite humans that worked for me.

00:33:46.932 --> 00:33:52.707
She's the CFO of a public company in Oklahoma and one that's a partner in a firm and, like I still talk to them all.

00:33:52.707 --> 00:33:54.038
I just it's so great.

00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.884
So when you love people that much, you're like, ooh, they're struggling, let me do for you.

00:33:57.884 --> 00:34:05.345
And I had to learn that you can't do that Because then who fails?

00:34:05.345 --> 00:34:06.990
That would be me.

00:34:06.990 --> 00:34:21.208
So I try to really keep that in the forefront of if I see them struggling, being honest about that, helping them work through techniques and tools to to delegate right, the urgent, the important.

00:34:21.208 --> 00:34:27.208
I also have I don't remember what it's called but also, what do we actually not need to be doing?

00:34:27.208 --> 00:34:28.992
Yes, yes, right, the whole cap.

00:34:28.992 --> 00:34:41.429
So just being like really intentional, knowing, frankly, that I need to spend most of my time at this level not doing things, talking to humans, reviewing thinking.

00:34:41.429 --> 00:35:09.983
So that's kind of that mixture of those things and really it's clear expectations, outcomes and I again my term is compassionate accountability like I am going to be super alongside you and I'm going to hold you accountable and I've learned you have to have some really really hard discussions at times with some of your favorite people and, um, and and it's okay, yeah, it's okay I try to.

00:35:10.143 --> 00:35:16.382
I try to equate delegation with teaching yes you're not pawning your work off on another person to do it.

00:35:16.382 --> 00:35:19.969
You're helping them grow to the next level and so.

00:35:19.969 --> 00:35:26.490
But delegation is probably the most common thing I talk about when I'm working with different leaders and things.

00:35:26.490 --> 00:35:34.880
They struggle with that because sometimes they don't trust the person that they need to do or they've been burnt on it and those kinds of things.

00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:42.650
So have you had to deal with like, do I trust this person or not, and does the delegation sometimes build the trust back?

00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:55.329
Yeah, I definitely have to do that and I've learned the hard way that I trust too quickly and it's really gotten me in bad in in hard places before.

00:35:55.329 --> 00:36:30.402
Um, you know, I I try to be super intentional on now about being a trust but verify and also monitoring the environment, for because you can get to where you totally trust someone and then either something goes on in their life and maybe they're not super upfront about that and maybe you see a change in behavior, maybe something in the environment and work comes up right, and so I think that you need to be able to trust your team.

00:36:30.402 --> 00:36:35.311
But trust is earned and so you really have to.

00:36:35.311 --> 00:36:37.280
Just, it's a constant like I've.

00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.110
I'll be honest, I I don't think I've learned.

00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:52.614
I've learned so many things like leadership is the hardest thing and you're never done and you I don't know that you can ever like spike that ball right.

00:36:52.614 --> 00:36:53.375
It's like culture.

00:36:53.394 --> 00:36:54.804
Right, we're like we'll fix the culture.

00:36:54.804 --> 00:36:56.746
I'm like, okay, but what does that mean?

00:36:56.746 --> 00:37:04.010
Right, like we can come in, we can evaluate, we can evolve, but you realize, like it's never done, you can't put a check mark on it and say okay, we're done, we're.

00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:11.523
You know, and just, I think, when you think you get those things right is when they become the most fragile that's actually interesting and probably really true.

00:37:11.684 --> 00:37:20.704
Yeah, because you start taking for granted like okay, we're good, we're good and then all of a sudden you have a different personality come in, or there's something's going on in the personal life or something where it's like whoa, what happened?

00:37:20.704 --> 00:37:21.505
How did that break?

00:37:21.784 --> 00:37:32.565
yeah, have you guys seen, as you've worked with companies like what gets in the way, like what are the common things of either establishing trust or willingness to let go, which is almost the same thing, right?

00:37:33.007 --> 00:37:33.327
Fear.

00:37:33.628 --> 00:37:34.190
It's just fear.

00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:38.650
Fear is the big one, because fear, like kills transparency.

00:37:38.650 --> 00:37:40.152
It does kill transparency.

00:37:40.152 --> 00:37:46.494
When you're not transparent about what's on your mind, I mean, then it just it tends to fail.

00:37:46.494 --> 00:37:50.764
If you think about the five dysfunctions of a team trust is the bottom level.

00:37:50.764 --> 00:37:52.525
Results is on the top.

00:37:52.525 --> 00:37:57.639
People want results, but they don't think about what they have to do to get to the results.

00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:09.005
Once you build the trust at the bottom and you can have those conflicting conversations where you're not taking offense to the conversations and things, and then you work your way up, then the results just happen naturally.

00:38:09.748 --> 00:38:10.891
It's the same thing with culture.

00:38:10.891 --> 00:38:13.065
I think too is like people say I need to fix the culture.

00:38:13.065 --> 00:38:14.512
I don't know that you can fix a culture.

00:38:14.512 --> 00:38:16.300
I mean a culture.

00:38:16.300 --> 00:38:19.385
A culture is just like in the natural world.

00:38:19.385 --> 00:38:30.193
It's it grows on its own and you need to make sure that the environment's right, the leaders are doing the right thing so that the people feel trusted, and then the culture will just kind of flourish.

00:38:30.193 --> 00:38:31.465
But you don't fix it.

00:38:31.465 --> 00:38:34.188
It's not like something that's like okay, I'm going to send it to the mechanic.

00:38:35.581 --> 00:38:36.608
That is very fair.

00:38:36.628 --> 00:38:39.824
I agree with you, you have to nurture it, yeah and be intentional about it.

00:38:39.824 --> 00:38:40.849
I think right.

00:38:41.659 --> 00:38:44.041
Yeah, I think the other thing is to speed of growth.

00:38:44.041 --> 00:38:57.873
I think leads to lack of delegation and some challenges in that area because a lot of companies will grow so fast and they skip steps to implement proper like meeting cadences and meeting rhythms.

00:38:57.893 --> 00:38:58.213
If you're a.

00:38:58.373 --> 00:39:02.998
Vern, harnish fan and communication tools and resources and process around that.

00:39:02.998 --> 00:39:10.335
And so all of a sudden, when it's being implemented, it feels like, oh, we're getting corporate right, like that's the top track, that is the top track.

00:39:10.396 --> 00:39:17.052
Yeah, versus it being something that the team can rely on and depend on and kind of lean into.

00:39:17.052 --> 00:39:26.673
And then I think when you have that type of really strong communication cadence, then it's easier to delegate because you feel informed too, Because it's not just about everyone else feeling informed At the top.

00:39:26.673 --> 00:39:32.050
You feel like you're going to lose information and not be in the know because of that.

00:39:32.050 --> 00:39:35.148
I think that speed of growth can really add to that challenge.

00:39:35.809 --> 00:39:36.231
It's funny.

00:39:36.231 --> 00:39:43.300
I had a conversation just two hours ago and they were talking about well, this person on the team doesn't feel like they have enough information.

00:39:43.300 --> 00:39:45.583
So when they're at networking events they don't feel like they have enough information.

00:39:45.583 --> 00:39:47.985
So when they're at networking events they don't feel like they can answer questions.

00:39:47.985 --> 00:39:58.889
But if I were to tell you all of the things you think you need to know, then I'm going to say and you can't say any of that at a networking event because it's confidential, but they feel better because they're in the know.

00:39:58.889 --> 00:40:02.851
So the problem wasn't that they didn't have enough information for the networking event.

00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:12.586
It was that they felt like they weren't hearing something, and so it's like what is the true issue?

00:40:12.586 --> 00:40:12.987
Well, let's be real.

00:40:12.987 --> 00:40:13.911
We, when we're making up a narrative.

00:40:13.931 --> 00:40:16.699
It's never as good as the truth, we always go to the, to the negative, when we're recruiting something.

00:40:16.699 --> 00:40:17.824
Um.

00:40:17.824 --> 00:40:19.690
Let's talk a little bit about the personal.

00:40:19.690 --> 00:40:23.923
So I mean, obviously, huge career, um, amazing accomplishments, um.

00:40:23.923 --> 00:40:28.043
But as you mentioned being a mom mom, a wife and a dog mom, now, I thought we had a lot of fur babies.

00:40:28.043 --> 00:40:30.791
We have three, I have five and there's cats as well.

00:40:30.891 --> 00:40:33.445
Oh goodness, Two dogs, three cats.

00:40:34.045 --> 00:40:49.012
Yeah, love them all, what has been your secret and I know it's not beautiful all the time, because nothing ever is but what's been your secret of balancing, you know, an amazing career, amazing professional life and everything at home and showing up the way that you would like to on the home front.

00:40:49.012 --> 00:40:50.273
It's been a journey.

00:40:52.760 --> 00:41:05.807
I think one thing is my husband, his willingness to, you know, really put aside his career, right, poor guy got his MBA.

00:41:05.807 --> 00:41:13.867
He's always like I'm the most well-educated you know CEO of a home ever.

00:41:13.867 --> 00:41:15.170
His willingness to do that.

00:41:15.170 --> 00:41:16.815
We made a decision for us.

00:41:16.896 --> 00:41:20.262
Personally, I think it's so personal how you choose to raise your family.

00:41:20.262 --> 00:41:34.452
We didn't want just for us again, no judgment of any we didn't want nannies to raise our kids, um, and so we just decided we'd we'll just make do, be a one-income family and and whatever that looks like.

00:41:34.452 --> 00:41:40.882
Um, he, he worked part-time for a long time but it gave him great opportunities to be a soccer dad and all the things.

00:41:40.882 --> 00:41:43.769
And I think for both of us it's weird, it like worked out.

00:41:43.769 --> 00:41:48.628
You know it's not traditional, right, and we both felt awkward in very specific situations.

00:41:48.628 --> 00:42:03.483
You know I'm the, the mom at the meeting, the, whatever meeting, parents meeting or whatnot that nobody knows how to talk to because I don't know what they're talking about nor does it it's just not because I'm not doing that every day and my poor husband shows up.

00:42:03.724 --> 00:42:12.182
There's never a dad anywhere at any of the meetings, so, which is fine, it's just what works for us.

00:42:12.182 --> 00:42:19.867
So I think that support and just being both of us being intentional, what partnership looks like, and and it's not been easy we've had rounds and and and really understanding right, because we both gave something up.

00:42:19.867 --> 00:42:29.764
I gave up the time with my kids, he gave up his career, and I think working really hard together to to understand that we both gave something up right was important.

00:42:29.764 --> 00:42:43.407
And then, honestly for me, um, I had to learn to be very honest about my boundaries, and that was later in my career.

00:42:43.407 --> 00:43:23.789
I really and that was a lot of coaching, I never, you know I remember Christina and I talking and one thing that always resonated and what really, I think, changed it for me is she said to me Heather, your job can't always win, and I don't know that I had ever thought about it that way that when I'm choosing to always do that, my kids are losing my husband's, I'm losing my sister, whoever right, my mom, all, and it's like how do you find that balance and be comfortable with what that boundary looks like.

00:43:25.240 --> 00:43:44.130
So I just started in my later, when I moved back here, and the weird thing is, I would say for any working mom, what I found is just my experience with my children is that when they're younger, they're really focused on just their world.

00:43:44.130 --> 00:43:49.851
So when you're in it, they're super thrilled, and when you're not, they're like whatever I've got my, whatever I'm watching or whatever I'm doing.

00:43:49.851 --> 00:43:53.599
And so I did a lot during that time.

00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:57.351
And what shocked me, I'll be perfectly honest, was when we moved back to Arizona.

00:43:57.351 --> 00:44:01.510
I worked in Big Four for almost nine years and I worked a lot.

00:44:01.510 --> 00:44:12.128
And then I went to Europe and I had never worked more in my life and so I thought, for sure, right, everyone's going to be so happy when we come here and I'm like working like normal human at least my perspective, right.

00:44:12.128 --> 00:44:17.253
And my kids were like you're always gone, you're not showing up, and it shocked me.

00:44:17.472 --> 00:44:29.442
And it rocked me a lot, because here I was thinking mom's winning and now mom's losing, and I didn't want them to feel that way, um, and so I just started being intentional.

00:44:29.442 --> 00:44:39.778
Um, when I took my second CFO job I I still remember the conversation because it was really hard, because I really wanted the job I said, hey, my son, my sons, are in soccer.

00:44:39.778 --> 00:44:40.721
I'm never going to miss a game.

00:44:40.721 --> 00:44:42.603
That's just a hard limit for me.

00:44:42.603 --> 00:44:48.820
I'm, I, I'm not like I just I decided how, um, how am I going to do that?

00:44:48.820 --> 00:44:54.833
So that both went, it did, and, and I had to be realistic, meaning I chose to be a CFO.

00:44:54.833 --> 00:45:09.072
I chose to be a CFO that does a lot of deals, um, I have certain standards and so thereby there are going to be times where I have to work from Hawaii or from that vacation or're doing deal, and my family had to come around me on that.

00:45:09.112 --> 00:45:11.762
So it's always just this constant like, what's going to work?

00:45:11.762 --> 00:45:13.248
What phase in your career are you in?

00:45:13.248 --> 00:45:17.664
And you can like, you can't, you can, and you have to be kind for your kind, I guess that's.

00:45:17.664 --> 00:45:33.713
The other thing is like I never used to be kind to myself, I never gave myself any grace and and I'm really try to be intentionally kind to myself and and you know it's okay if I screw up for a week and I'll get it right again.

00:45:33.713 --> 00:45:43.226
I'm religious pride to be really religious about working out, so like doing those things that you know are going to get you started and are going to get you to keep cadence.

00:45:43.226 --> 00:45:54.514
So that's how I I mean it's messy and you mess up and you say sorry and and you know you make sure that because it's all important, like I love my job right and so I.

00:45:54.679 --> 00:46:07.434
I don't you know like I, but I obviously I love my kids and my husband all the things more like obviously yeah, but a part a lot of who I am is who I am as a professional Right, and I don't think that's bad per se.

00:46:08.460 --> 00:46:12.472
My brother last week looks at me and he goes you know your hobby is working.

00:46:12.472 --> 00:46:14.184
And I said what?

00:46:14.184 --> 00:46:18.530
And he's like you need a different hobby, like your hobby is just to work Interesting.

00:46:18.530 --> 00:46:20.907
And I had never thought of it that way.

00:46:20.907 --> 00:46:22.110
I haven't either.

00:46:22.110 --> 00:46:31.900
Yes, I enjoy working Like, I love sitting down and you know, getting into things and coming up with ideas and working Like and I don't see a challenge with that.

00:46:31.900 --> 00:46:33.306
You're like it works for me.

00:46:33.365 --> 00:46:42.873
Yeah, but I think to your point a book that I read in 23 when I was kind of making the decision of when do I need to start putting some boundaries and things on.

00:46:42.873 --> 00:46:47.507
It was called Breaking the Glass Slipper and it was really great.

00:46:47.507 --> 00:46:53.572
It's kind of like Rachel Hollis-ish, but what I would say like more adult.

00:46:53.572 --> 00:47:01.708
I think it's Elaine Turner wrote it and it just really makes you think through all the different things and being okay with whatever it is that you want.

00:47:01.708 --> 00:47:09.969
So it's really good about not saying what's right to want and what's not, which some of the books are right, but really kind of what is?

00:47:10.009 --> 00:47:13.625
I'm actually starting to reread it again right now because I was in a different phase.

00:47:13.625 --> 00:47:16.681
Then I'm like what different tips will I pick up from it this time around?

00:47:16.681 --> 00:47:19.889
Right, but I think to what you said.

00:47:19.889 --> 00:47:21.893
I think you had to have the hard conversation.

00:47:21.893 --> 00:47:32.224
I think it's easy, you know, men or women, I think, as we're working through our careers, to feel like certain things are being done to us right, and that it's required and it's expected.

00:47:32.224 --> 00:47:43.963
But if we never actually are, if we never set the boundary, if we never articulate the boundary, oftentimes the asks are coming in because you never say no, you never say no Right, or you never ask for help or those kinds of things.

00:47:43.963 --> 00:47:46.467
So how much of it really is on us as individuals?

00:47:46.487 --> 00:47:47.027
I think a lot.

00:47:47.106 --> 00:47:54.556
You know, to raise our hand and use our voice and put those boundaries up, Because most companies are going to work with that right.

00:47:54.556 --> 00:47:57.309
They are If you're giving your best whenever you're there and you're present.

00:47:57.309 --> 00:47:59.985
Most companies are going to work with that and we actually have a client.

00:47:59.985 --> 00:48:07.954
They have a rule, as you mentioned, and their rule for their entire company is never miss a game, and it doesn't matter if it's a game, a dance recital a gymnastics meet.

00:48:08.014 --> 00:48:08.536
It's the idea.

00:48:08.536 --> 00:48:09.538
I love that.

00:48:09.538 --> 00:48:10.239
That's so great.

00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:12.728
So for all their kids, it's always you go.

00:48:12.728 --> 00:48:16.047
Yeah, I wanted to highlight just one thing, just because it brought up.

00:48:16.047 --> 00:48:23.893
I had and I think this is something a lot of people really struggle with, younger especially.

00:48:23.893 --> 00:48:33.032
I remember I was in DC, I was working fora partner, I was trying to work part-time in Big Four.

00:48:33.032 --> 00:48:48.965
I was the manager of the largest public client for in the DC office and I was trying to work part-time for multiple reasons andI remember I started feeling like I was working more and I was really mad at Larry.

00:48:49.045 --> 00:48:58.132
He was my partner and I remember going in with all sorts of self like you know, like just I'm right, feeling right, being so mad at him.

00:48:58.132 --> 00:49:02.081
And he's like you know, heather, it's really interesting, he goes.

00:49:02.081 --> 00:49:06.711
Well, we agreed you were going to work part-time, right?

00:49:06.711 --> 00:49:08.505
Yeah, that's my point.

00:49:08.505 --> 00:49:18.289
And he's like I don't work part-time, true, I'm like where are we going, like this is going to be fascinating, where is this going to go?

00:49:18.289 --> 00:49:25.548
And he goes do you think I have in my brain exactly what your part-time schedule looks like?

00:49:25.548 --> 00:49:40.090
I'm like no, he's like do you think when I need something, I'm going to like check and make sure am I going to call or send an email and I'm like you're probably going to call or send an email.

00:49:40.090 --> 00:49:42.288
He's like so whose fault is it if you pick it up?

00:49:42.288 --> 00:49:46.608
And I was like I just got that.

00:49:46.608 --> 00:49:55.842
That's because I'm a very accountable person, like if, if I can figure out where I did it wrong, I am going to own it, even if I only should own two percent.

00:49:55.842 --> 00:49:57.186
And somebody else shown 98.

00:49:57.206 --> 00:50:01.684
I'm like, oh my god it's all my fault yeah, but if we own it we can fix it, yeah right exactly and I.

00:50:01.724 --> 00:50:10.411
Just that was one of the most um, and I use it with my team all the time because I often tell them, like look guys, look guys, I'm not going to control here's the boundaries.

00:50:10.411 --> 00:50:15.586
Now if you come to me and say you need this and I tell you to go pound sand, then that's a whole other discussion.

00:50:15.586 --> 00:50:18.849
But I am not going to manage your life for you.

00:50:18.849 --> 00:50:30.465
And I think learning that at that stage in my career was so powerful for me to like really and I mean, obviously I still had to learn it because I didn't set boundaries and all the things, but then I just blamed myself for it.

00:50:30.465 --> 00:50:33.306
At least I knew where that belonged.

00:50:33.306 --> 00:50:43.489
But I think as we work through our careers, making that separation is so important of what should you hold your leader accountable for versus what do you need to hold yourself accountable for?

00:50:43.489 --> 00:50:46.547
So it was a good one in my learnings.

00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:48.186
Really quick before we wrap up.

00:50:48.186 --> 00:50:51.106
What was your favorite place to visit when you lived in Europe?

00:50:51.969 --> 00:50:53.793
Oh boy, favorite.

00:50:53.793 --> 00:51:01.586
There was a place, one I love Rome I don't know.

00:51:01.586 --> 00:51:08.186
Rome is such an interesting, fascinating, beautiful historic city, and so I really loved Rome.

00:51:08.186 --> 00:51:11.909
My husband and I spent an anniversary in Monaco.

00:51:11.909 --> 00:51:14.547
That place is super cool.

00:51:14.547 --> 00:51:30.503
And then there was a really small town in Switzerland and right now my brain is going absolutely blank, but hopefully it might come to me, but it was.

00:51:30.503 --> 00:51:57.289
It was basically um, uh, pretty close to us and it was a little town that you had to take a gondola to and and there was no cars up there, and then you could take another gondola, I think it was to the top of the Schilthorn and it was just such a neat little town that made you like it was so Swiss and I loved that town.

00:51:57.289 --> 00:51:59.965
But there's so many great places, I'm so glad I did it.

00:51:59.965 --> 00:52:02.704
Yeah, so much.

00:52:02.704 --> 00:52:09.184
There was so much eye-opening happening when you live in Europe versus being in the US, so it was super great.

00:52:09.346 --> 00:52:10.228
Yeah, it's amazing.

00:52:10.228 --> 00:52:13.090
We love traveling and so it's always fun to hear people's favorite places.

00:52:13.090 --> 00:52:16.349
So, with that, thank you so much for being here.

00:52:16.349 --> 00:52:25.628
I know that you are hiring and growing as an organization, so if our listeners want to reach out to you or to get in touch with the company, where should they go?

00:52:26.070 --> 00:52:43.733
EvolvedMDcom we are a really people-first, culture-first, mission-driven organization Lots of opportunity, tons of great people trying to do good in the world and solve a really important problem that's facing every age group that we have.

00:52:43.733 --> 00:52:45.429
And you know, it's just a really incredible place.

00:52:45.429 --> 00:52:46.396
I'm on LinkedIn and you know we're it's.

00:52:46.396 --> 00:52:47.882
It's a just a really incredible place.

00:52:47.882 --> 00:52:52.992
I'm on LinkedIn and yeah, either way, well, thank you again.

00:52:54.164 --> 00:52:54.766
Thank you both.

00:52:54.967 --> 00:52:55.789
Yeah, thank you.

00:52:59.240 --> 00:53:01.626
Thanks for tuning in to the Confidence Curve.

00:53:01.626 --> 00:53:07.228
We hope today's episode left you inspired and ready to embrace your journey confidently.

00:53:07.228 --> 00:53:15.925
Remember whether you're leading a team, growing your business or pursuing personal growth, each step forward builds your curve.

00:53:15.925 --> 00:53:25.027
If you enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to subscribe, share and leave us a review For more insights and resources.

00:53:25.027 --> 00:53:29.215
Visit us at apexgtscom.

00:53:29.215 --> 00:53:32.469
Until next time, keep climbing the curve.